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Church seizure
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T O P I C
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Discussion Started: 11-14-2000, 9:31 AM
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The Indianapolis Baptist Temple stopped withholding federal income and Social Security taxes from the paychecks of its employees in 1984, saying its duty to obey God prevailed over manmade laws, and that withholding taxes would make it an agent of the government. Rev. Greg A. Dixon said the employees have paid their own taxes.
"We're not saying people shouldn't pay taxes," Dixon said. "We're just saying it's not the church's responsibility."
Do you agree with Dixon's philosophy?
Do you agree with the decision to seize the church?
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View Messages: [newest first] | [oldest first]
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wkdebruler
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04-20-2001, 12:20 AM
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When Jesus' disciple was questioned about Jesus' responsibility to pay taxes, what was His response? Jesus said, "Give to Caesar what is Caesers", (since we are talking about a church I suggest we consult the Bible). We are to put God first in all things because He gave us everything, but we are also to live humble, obedient lives reflecting Christ in all we do while we are here on earth. How can one claim to be a servant of God while living in open rebelion? Is it worth destroying your witness over a debate about money. If so, who or what are you really worshiping? Remember, you can only serve one master....
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RLBaty
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04-06-2001, 6:31 PM
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"Rights" also wrote, "I know all across America churches like IBT are being attacked by the federal government. Is this a splerge (did he/she mean "scourge"?-RBaty) on churches that refuse to place government. over God? Should make you all wonder!" -- Well, like the IBT member who previously posted here, "Rights" appears to make bold claims that "make us wonder" about his/her credibility and gives no reasonable basis to support the claims. Good rhetoric if you are inclined to tax-evasion, though. Whatever it is, it isn't a scourge on the churches. It just seems to be about time that churches and their human rulers accept the proposition that they have public responsibilities that cannot be avoided/evaded simply by invoking the name of some god or God. Accepting legitimate public responsibilities does not put the government over God (see previous discussion here on that).
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RLBaty
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04-06-2001, 5:03 PM
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"Rights" writes that, "Tonight (Tuesday) on 60 minutes they are doing a documentation on if there really is a law requiring self-employed owners to have to take out taxes from their workers. Many have stopped doing so, saying there is no law!" -- Well, there is no end to the gimmicks tax-evaders will go to to try and come up with something to try. This is one of the latest popular crazes. Some bank robbers don't get caught, and I suppose some of these latest types of tax evaders won't get caught. However, some will get caught, the law will be upheld (no news to anybody in the know), and some of those folks will have the same experience as the Dixons (no news to anybody in the know).
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Rights
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04-03-2001, 5:31 PM
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I have been keeping up with this story, and I find it very intersting! Maybe there is more to this, then what others want to believe! Tonight (Tuesday) on 60min. They are doing a documentation on if there really is a law requiring self-employed owners to have to take out taxes from their workers. Many have stopped doing so, saying there is no law! Very interesting! We will all continue to watch our so-called- freedom issues across the world, I wonder what is next? I know all across America churches like IBT are being attacked by the fed. government also. Is this a splerge on churches that refuse to place gov. over God? Should make you all wonder!
One Nation Under God
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RLBaty
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03-31-2001, 10:48 PM
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Well, maybe a few more concluding remarks are warranted. After all, "I took several months out of my time just to inform you of the situation". "I wanted to spread the truth". I don't think anybody here has been proposing that IBT is a 501(c)(3) organization. Section 501(c)(3) describes organizations that qualify for income tax exemption and are eligible to receive tax deductible contributions. IRS Announcement 94-111 specifically advises churches that, under the law, they are not required to apply for or obtain recognition of tax exempt status from the IRS in order to be treated as tax exempt. They are required possess the requisite characteristics described in 501(c)(3). Jack Taylor was not denied his contributions to the IBT because the IBT was not "registered" as a 501(c)(3) organization. The Court denied him his contribution deduction because he failed to show that the IBT was an organization that was qualified (i.e. possessed the characteristics or a tax-exempt organization as described in 501(c)(3)) to recieve tax deductible contributions. Of course, we have reason to believe it doesn't qualify because of the personal inurement to the Dixons, its political activism, and its anti-government, tax-evasion activities. Employment taxes are a little different matter. There, churches who employ (pay) folks have about the same responsibilities under the law as do other employers. However, churches were given the specific option to elect out and be exempted. The IBT refused to elect out (which election would then have properly subjected its workers to self-employment tax liabilities). This failure to elect out was based upon the misguided notions of the Dixons (insisting they be allowed to make up the rules instead of following the rules legitimately and constitutionally made). The consequences of such foolishness has pretty much been played out. The Dixons have made a name, of sorts, for themselves, and we "must move on". Just be wary of those who, under the guise of being truth-seekers and truth-tellers, would misrepresent these matters.
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JimTank
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03-29-2001, 1:16 PM
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Preach and Run Applecider? Best of luck to you in your blind faith of a leader and a church cause. Don't forget about April 15, tax day.
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applecider
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03-28-2001, 3:29 PM
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Well, I am saying my good-bye's. It doesn't feel right, with out an appropriate good-bye. I have a comment for Baty, you say I have lost all credibility for Baptist Temple. Well I say to you, I took several months out of my time, just to inform you, and others of our situation. I wanted to spread the truth. I wanted all to know, that IBT PAID THEIR TAXES, the gov. just wanted it a different way. I wanted all to know that IBT went back to their first love (so to speak), when in the 80's the church knew that they had sinned, and decided to follow Jesus. And place Him over the church; that which He established with His own blood! I wanted others to know how much IBT did for this community during there 50 years of service to Indiana. How many lives were changed. How many souls were saved (thousands). How many are missionaries, evangelist, pastors, that have came from the Baptist Temple. God truly has His hand over IBT. He blessed that church fully, and continues, despite the lose of a 'building'. For see- the church is the people, and the gov. only got a 50 yr. old building. The 'church' has just moved to another location. I wanted all to know that IBT will continue placing Jesus Christ head over their lives, each and every day. Where ever the people of IBT will go, they will do what they are commanded, and that is 'Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel!' I wanted all to know, that they too, can know Jesus Christ as there personal Saviour. For see- Jesus died for everyone! That includes you! "... Confess your a sinner, Repent of your sins, accept Jesus Christ that He died, and rose again, and believe on Him. Ask Him to forgive you, and ask Him to come into your heart. It will be the best thing you could ever do in your life! Knowing your destination, when you die! Knowing you will go to heaven! I wanted all to know, despite the arguments, disagreements, etc... I truly am concerned about your souls! This is a very hard day in age to live! And I will continue to pray for you, even though I don't know you personally! I must go, because I must move on. IBT must move on. This is God's will for our church, and we will except that, and continue to do His will for our lives! I pray that each and every one of you have come, or will come to the point in your life, that you will except the Lord Jesus Christ as your Saviour. (John 3:16,17 : Romans 3:23,5:8,6:23,10:9,10.: I John 1:8,9) I don't know what you consider me? (friend or enemy), but I want you to know that everything I wrote was to inlighten, and inform. God bless you all as I go on down the road! Love, in Christ, J.C.
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DAVID EBBE
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03-28-2001, 10:46 AM
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Applecider. On you entry on 3-23-01. You stated that God let your people take opver this land because the indians were not worshipping him. The people that came over to this country wanted religeos freedom. Now you say it is okay to take some peoples freedom but not yours? Seems like a conterdiction. The constitution does protect people. However, it does not discriminate, unlike the religeon you speak of. I am not saying anyhting against christians, but the things i learned in church are far different from what you seem to be twisting the bible into. How could the bible say thou shall not kil, steal or covent thy neighbor then say it is okay to steal land and kill the indians? The bible that i read said to try to help people who do not understand the word. But it did not say to kill or break laws. To live in society we must live by the laws. If our forefather didnot want laws, why did they draw up a bill of rights for all people. It says that all are created equal. But according to your words here, only christians are equal. Were the puritans seeking religeous freedom when they killed people in the name of God for practicing what they called witchcraft? How is this equal? By your standards the mob rules. If this is to be true then your are again on the wrong side because the law and seems like more then not are saying you broke the law and now you are paying for it?
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DAVID EBBE
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03-28-2001, 10:43 AM
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Once again Applecider has no fact to support her claim. The government has to have limits or there would be total caos. What would the government do if the next church wants to support vigilanty justice. This is how it was handled in the old days that applecider keeps talking about. But then again if the old days were still here she would have no rights to talk. Society must have limits to stop those who have no common sense. It is people like the IBT that make lawyers loads of money over lawsuits that have no legal bearing. Every branch of the judicial system has found no fact in there case. Please tell me how the government can allow you to get away with violating the law and the prosucute a person who claims to be killing for his religeon. Remember that a separation of church and state does not allow for a certain religeon to be given preferance.
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JimTank
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03-28-2001, 10:15 AM
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Well Applecider, "nice" job avoiding the slavery and Indian issue. Ha. Well if you are going to claim that our "Godly forefathers" were serving God in making this country, you better read an American history book rather than the Bible. The bible does not contain any information on our land, even though there were inhabitants long before us.
My point is still THIS, America is a free country and any free country needs a functional Government body. The CHURCH and those attending church (you are in the minority), DO NOT have the freedom to violate the law. The church has no authority in America to decide that it does not have to follow the rules. In Europe, the Church dominated the government and the law, that is one of the reasons our forefathers sought out a better place to live. Now you and IBT are flipping your middle finger at the government that was elected by the citizens of this country. You are accusing the US Marshall, a God-fearing man, that he is sinning by following the law.
Once again, I say, shut up, obey the law, OR start your own country elsewhere.
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